It is kind of funny that all the bands we say are goth now did not think they were goth.

but other than music, I think the fashion has developed too

;-;
For the life of me, I can never find any "goth" clothing I look good in.
There was a time when I had brief hope that someone would guide me through the Dos and Donts of "gothiness" but now I'm starting to wonder if I'll still have that opportunity to be someone's "Ken Doll" as she put it. lol

I dunno... maybe I'm cursed to have the heart, mind, and soul of a goth while being damned to wearing "Normie" clothes all my life.

Or... maybe I'll wear all white and call it "Monochromatic Goth".

I dunno if this is relevent;please feel free to delete if not.

I was at college doing A Levels.
One of my subjects was Sociology.
I used "Goth" as a form of sub-culture for a project on methodology but was told that it did not exist lol!!!
They only accepted Mods and Rockers and I am talking late eighties.
I was into heavy metal;my friends were either hippies or Goths.
My Girlfriend was a Goth!!
But Goth did not exist.
I found that bizzarre.
Anyway;my own views are this;I honestly feel that I have an eclectic music taste;my friend s at college moved me from Metal to indie and Goth but personally I'm not that into the labels;I'm sure the bands that I call Goth most young Goths would have never heard of.
And so many so called Goth bands.........just heavy metal so for me is kinda full circle.
I was in a punk band when I was a kid;punk plus great lyrics minus guitar solos = Goth;add solos you get metal.
But if you wanna talk about attitude...............

WILLIAM BLAKE was the first headbanger and JOHN KEATS was the first Goth.............

I apologise if I have gone on;feel free to delete ED.Cheers.

^^I think Baudelaire was definitely up there as being one of the first goths, too! (well...okay, maybe the second one, haha)

That is sadly true. Growing up, I use to see Goths around quite a bit. Nowadays, I mostly see emo and scene kids. Thanks for sharing the article.

Goth- as ever it will change and evolve. Rock and metal may become a bigger influence thats the biggest change I have seen. More people just dreaming of goth and less people doing what they really want.

that 'goth' flag is aweful in my opinion, you can't use a band logo on a flag which is ment to represent a large group of people who are united not only by music. I know LOTS of goths who don't like HIM and lots of people who wouldn't call themselves goth who do as with any band.

It's funny... no one ever wakes up one day and decides, "I'm going to be Goth!" And I think that people who are wedded to strict definitions of Goth, emo, etc. really don't understand these groups of people.

You are who you are. Hopefully you meet like-minded people. We won't all be exactly the same, but that cross-pollination helps us understand each other. And maybe the group calls itself "Goth," but I think use of the term is a kind of shorthand for the other things about us: love of intense beauty and drama, love of intense art forms, ability to see both light and dark in the world.

Just thinking out loud. But I do agree that "Goth" does and will evolve, because Goths are individuals. (That's more than I can say for some of our detractors! )

Diva: That's right! I remember you mentioning that friend who wanted to feel "Gother than thou." How weird. I know she's a friend and you love her, but it must have really made you wonder what she was thinking.

GothicScrybe: I would have loved to witness that! And maybe offer the woman some salt for that foot in her mouth.

I know this is kind of off subject in a way but I was in my front yard and my neighbors little girl came to the fence and said "Loooky Jen I went for the goth look in my bathing suit." (she is only 7. I had to admit it was a cute lil bathing suit. It was black with cherries on it.

Well...........

Heck you guys an gals I just dunno!!!!!!!!!!!!

I grew up as a headbanger heavy metal dude and went through indie phase and punk phase;was never Goth to be honest.
But some of my friends say I was but they use my love of Blake (the poet) and Bauhaus (the band) to eximplify this..............Actually I don't think that is a real word........
Am very much looking forward to the new Manic Street Preacher CD as lyrics are taken from Ritchie;he died;he was young,he was a bit not liking his food type thin;he kinda went for the blade and blood type look...........
Ask Helen Damnation for more information;she knows about the chap I am talking about.
I went from despair to where and I still have no answers.
I hate labels and will never be a part of any such thing.
But if you equate Goth with poetry,beauty and pain then I'm as Goth as it gets.
I die every day.

Well said Ian!

I'm gonna go ahead and disagree here and say goth is definitely about the music. Sure, there are and were decidedly spooky individuals with a flare for the macabre through history, but most people like that sort of stuff anyway, in the proper context.

To say that "goth" has little to nothing to do with the music seems a gross injustice to me. I feel like most (not all, just a generalization) of the people who for some reason are so eager to consider themselves goth and yet cast aside the music like it's a trivial matter only do so because of the attitudes of most goths regarding said music.

I think there are five main reasons that a self-proclaimed goth would scoff at the notion that the music is the most fundamental element of the subculture:

first thing is that for some reason they are eager to consider themselves goth because it IS popular and it IS coming back (which is what this thread was about originally anyways). One out of every three kids I would say you see walking down the street have some sort of "dark" edge to them. Stores and malls and online boutiques are catering to these kids' wants and the image is getting really popular. I love it. Easier access to the things I like, who care what everyone else is doing. Anyway, Though they are entirely different things, youth culture nowadays is drawn to any sort of alternative look, whether it be scene, emo, goth, punk, rockabilly, metalhead or whatever. They make no distinctions between the two because they are in love with the look and not with what it really is. Some people just want the label slapped on them because they feel it makes them look cooler. They WANT to be goth, instead of just falling into it. They project an image of themselves first that they want others to believe, and then hope that they can back it up and learn a few things in the meantime.

Second reason why I think people would downplay the music in goth subculture is because they aren't confident in their knowledge of the music that builds it, and those who are tend to be horrible elitist snobs. Instead of acknowledging that goth is 100% music related and risk being shot down and embarrassed by someone with more info than them, they depreciate its value and focus on more easily attainable things like clothes, classic horror novelists and kitschy Halloween-related memorabilia.

Third reason: because what if the unthinkable happens? Say you love dressing in black. You love scary movies and images of graveyards, coffins, crosses, zombies, HP Lovecraft, and all other related schtick. You are in love with the aesthetics of the culture, and yet....
you seriously hate the music. You've listened to it over and over and you just can't stand it. You'd rather listen to Elvis Costello (or whatever). Then what? Denied a pass into the exciting world of goth?

Fourth: People who don't fit into mainstream society, who have self-esteem issues, or who don't have a niche to fall into and are lonely are drawn like moths to a candle to the goth thing because it excuses their social ineptitudes. If they're different and lonely and don't fit in, that's sad. If they're different, lonely, don't fit in but then play off as a goth, they can foist their problems on the subculture instead of meeting them and learning to adapt. Instead of trying to improve their social skills, they retreat further and say thing slike "i'm a goth and people don't understand me, that's why I don't have friends". Young girls who don't feel confident in their appearance are especially prone to this behavior, methinks.

Fifth: People romanticize goth and make it seem like a state of mind or a thought process, like some weird zen Buddha/ritual cult thing. It's not. It is a music subculture. There are a lot of different types of goth but the one to which most people refer has nothing to do with books, architecture, movies, etc. It's just what it is. It's just music.


I say if you want to dress like a typical goth, do it. If you want to be spooky, do it. But why do people crave the title goth so much? It's like back in the day where everyone married into families to move up in rank-Baroness and all that. It ain't a club and goths aren't the kkk. There aren't levels.

Just be.